Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns

I am a Sportrodler,

Wie jetzt?

Vor ein paar Tagen hast du die Sportrodler noch mit Heuschrecken verglichen, einer Plage und Strafe Gottes.
Die Sportrodler wären zwar schnell, hätten aber wenig Kontrolle über ihre Rodel, würden Unfälle verursachen und dann verstreut in der Bahn herumliegen.

Und jetzt bist du plötzlich selber einer?

Versteh ich nicht...


Doch zurück zum Thema:

Die Bahnbetreiber machen ja ihr Hauptgeschäft mit den Leihrodlern, denen der Bahnzustand ziemlich egal ist, da sie eh nur zwei- dreimal runterrutschen und nicht mit uns, die auch mal 10-15 Abfahrten zusammen bekommen und eine gute Präparation zu schätzen wissen. Wenn man dran denkt, was ein Rodelticket im Vergleich zum Skipaß kostet und welche Abfahrtsvariationen man dafür bekommt (in den allermeisten Fällen nur eine), dann darf man dafür aber schon erwarten, daß die Strecke bestmöglich in Schuß gehalten wird, vor allem wenn man bedenkt, daß manche Skigebiete mittlerweile ohne ihre Rodelbahn gar nicht mehr wirtschaftlich betrieben werden könnten.

Was sich manche Betreiber auf ihren Rodelbahnen leisten, könnten sie sich mit Skipisten nicht erlauben. Ich habe noch keine Skipiste erlebt, die morgens überhaupt nicht präpariert war, Rodelbahnen schon. Da hilft es natürlich, wenn die Betreiber selbst begeisterte Rodler sind und sich auch etwas Mühe geben.

Und obwohl auch ich eine gut präparierte Bahn einer Huckelpiste vorziehe, muß man letztendlich immer dran denken, daß wir auf Naturbahnen rodeln und unsere Geschwindigkeit und das Risiko dem Streckenzustand anpassen müssen und nicht andersrum.


 

Wheelie, i completely agree at all.
As you wrote cost of rodelpass is higher than skipass, if we consider that the most of time we have 1 only track to use.
And i agree, it's same thing i wrote previosly, it's very difficult to find a ski track not prepared in the morning, but it's not rare that this happens with rodeltrack.

The question is: why? We pay anyway the ticket, to find maybe a good preparing or maybe not or maybe some bumps or maybe many bumps? 

The fact is what i wrote and you confirmed, rentals is 99% of users of rodeltracks and who manages lifts know it.
So they have not interest to do better.
​​​​​​this is reason because more sportrodlers would increase quality of preparation, because sportrodlers would appreciate good conditions.

Just one thing: we have to adapt our Speed on basis of track.
Yes, but we should adapt Speed on basis of kind of track (corners, long corners, straight) and not on basis of bumps at 9.00 in the morning. Because we paid ticket also to find good preparing, as you said, we have only 1 track! At least, that track should be good!

Also ski tracks are "natural track".

But as FEDE says and he knows very well this, skitracks preparation starts in summer, when they mill the ground...

If they would do it also for rodeltracks as said Fede, probably we would find many less bumps.

And bumps is Dangerous also for rentals, in fact on 7 January on Rosskopf i did only 2 runs where second half track was not praticable. 
In the second round, around 10.30, i start seeing rentals...and in the second part i see all kind of incidents.
In the last corners some rentals went walking because one of them did a big Flight on a bump that he injured his leg!

​

If you consider to take legal actions against me, don´t hesitate.
Did I tell you that my girlfriend is a lawyer? Well, if you loose the case, you have to pay her fee. I hope you can afford that.

She is pretty expensive. She has a Private Pilote License and her own small propeller-aircraft. It´s a bit cramped inside, now she thinks about purchasing a bigger one. So the money is very welcome, especially if its earned so easy.

skitracks preparation starts in summer, when they mill the ground...

Ja schon, doch die allermeisten Rodelbahnen verlaufen auf Wegen oder Straßen, die schon da waren, bevor irgendjemand ans Rodeln gedacht hat. Das sind Forstwege oder Zufahrten zu Almen und Hütten, wo die Anlieger wohl nicht sehr erfreut wären, wenn da im Sommer ein paar Steilkurven eingebaut werden würden.

If you consider to take legal actions against me

Deine Ausführungen verwirren mich immer mehr, Christian.
Ich kann beim besten Willen nicht erkennen, auf welchen Beitrag du Bezug nimmst.

She is pretty expensive.

Ich kenne deine Lebensgefährtin nicht, auch wie sie ihren Lebensunterhalt verdient, geht mich absolut nichts an und interessiert mich auch nicht. Allerdings könnte ich mir angesichts deiner Wortwahl vorstellen, daß sie darüber wohl nicht sehr erbaut sein dürfte.

Luchs: One last thing... God bless you! 

Luchs schrieb:

If you consider to take legal actions against me, don´t hesitate.
Did I tell you that my girlfriend is a lawyer? Well, if you loose the case, you have to pay her fee. I hope you can afford that.

She is pretty expensive. She has a Private Pilote License and her own small propeller-aircraft. It´s a bit cramped inside, now she thinks about purchasing a bigger one. So the money is very welcome, especially if its earned so easy.

Was geht denn bei dir ab? Das was du zu dir nimmst, solltest du schleunigst absetzen …

wheelie schrieb:

 

 

Deine Ausführungen verwirren mich immer mehr, Christian.
Ich kann beim besten Willen nicht erkennen, auf welchen Beitrag du Bezug nimmst.

 

Diesen hier:

Anyway maybe you have to make attention to what you are writing.
You are writing publically false information about me and this "legal action" i would have done.
You are continuing to repeat it as a loop.
Are you sure about you are writing?
Are you sure that i did a legal action at the end?

Because in this case maybe, it's not Sexten manager or other managers that should be worry about legal action.


Da kann man schon eine unterschwellige Androhung einer legal action erkennen. Auch wenn das Englisch in dem Text teilweise eigenartig ist.
legal action = den Rechtsweg beschreiten, in dem Fall wohl eine Anzeige.
Die kommt womöglich, wenn ich nicht aufhöre, falsche Informationen öffentlich zu verbreiten. So verstehe ich das. 


Nach dem Unfall in Sexten mit Einlieferung ins Spital hat vide offenbar keine rechtlichen Schritte gegen die Seilbahn ergriffen.
Aber er hat zuerst eindeutige Absichten in diese Richtung erkennen lassen.
Wahrscheinlich ist ihm doch klargeworden, dass er keine Chance hat, hier etwas zu gewinnen. Du erinnerst dich vielleicht noch, als er nach dem Unfall hier im Forum ein Video gepostet hat, und dem Streckenbetreiber die Schuld gegeben hat. Du hast selbst darauf geantwortet.  Und ich hatte email-Verkehr, da wurde die Absicht, die Streckenbetreiber zur Rechenschaft zu ziehen, noch deutlicher. Falls mir jemand eine Verleumdungsklage anhängen will: ich hab die emails.

Und auch wenn in dem Fall der Streckenbetreiber auf der sicheren Seite gewesen wäre, denke ich: Wenn alle Rodler diese Mentalität hätten, würde niemand mehr eine Rodelbahn für Touristen betreiben. Wer möchte schon eine Haftstrafe riskieren, wenn der Streckenzustand einmal nicht perfekt ist.
Es gab im Pustertal viele kleine Rodelbahnen, die es heute nicht mehr gibt, weil die Betreiber ständig verklagt wurden. Wenn die Rodelbahn praktisch keinen direkten Profit abwirft und jeder darauf gratis fahren kann, dann lohnt sich der Ärger einfach nicht.




Letztlich gibt es auch sowas wie Eigenverantwortung und Vernunft. Wenn jemand bei der 3. Abfahrt von der Rodel fliegt und nachher sagt, die Streckenbetreiber sind schuld, da war eine Bodenwelle, die war bei der 2. Abfahrt noch nicht so gross, dann frage ich mich, was soll der Streckenbetreiber da machen, während der Betriebszeiten?. 


 

Rodler aus Berlin schrieb:

schrieb:

Luchs post=18380 user

Was geht denn bei dir ab? Das was du zu dir nimmst, solltest du schleunigst absetzen …
 

Von wegen "Coronaimpfung hat keine Nebenwirkungen "

FedeC_ITA schrieb:

In Italy, in the last 10 years, there have been two serious accidents with 3 deaths.
in 2012 a 14 year old boy, first time on rodeln, in Croda Rossa. In this case, the court sentenced the Sesto director and safety officer for a few years in prison, because they did not install tree guards along the track. For this guy it was the first time with Rodeln, so without any knowledge of the track and how to drive a Rodeln.
Second accident in 2019 in Renon, mother and children (8 years old) on the same sled, down a black ski slope.
I talked to Helmut Gamber about it this winter. He told me that they arrived at the middle station for the first time with a plastic paddle. He stopped them and suggested renting a rodeln. they did so, and went up to the top station, committing a tragic mistake: they, instead of getting off the Rodelbahn, made a black run.
In this case, the station manager was initially accused because the board that led to the toboggan run was only in German and not also in Italian. But the picture with the sleigh with the red cross was clear. However, they too were approaching a Rodelbahn for the first time without having any idea what a Rodeln looked like and what a Rodelbahn looked like.




 

What did finally happen to the station manager? 
What would have been if the sign would have an italian and german writing, but the accident had happened to an english tourist?

www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2...28-02ebd02231a6.html

In crodarossa, I read that there was a deadly accident just one week before the 14 year old killed himself. It was on the same spot, and the company did not anything to guard the track at this place. So the court said, this was gross negligence. The spot should have been recognized as dangerous.
Maybe it was just coincidentally at the same spot and it was not really dangerous. Today the track is guarded everywhere, on old youtube videos it looks different.

I asked people in the area, but I didn`t hear anything about the final judgement, I know the manager did go on appeal after he was sentenced to 1 year.

 

@ Luchs:

again...now you wrote something differente: that i THOUGHT to do a legal action against Sexten, but before you wrote, for 2 days, more than one time that I DID a legal action against Sexten. So isn't false what you wrote?
The reasons why I didn't do it, are not of your interest (and it's not for reason you wrote, anyway).

I m tired to repeat same things 30 times and receive your replies out of the contest with your examples for example like "cavallette" or like "shits done by dogs".

Also regarding the fact that some tracks are free of cost, so without lift, I repeated too many times that:
-one thing is that track is free of cost, so what you find, you find
-one thing is if I pay a ticket

Surely I found conditions good, less good (as day of my injury) but also worse (indecent) conditions like in Ratchings in 2019 and in Rosskopf in 2022.
When you pay a skipass you are sure that at least for first 2 hours in the morning you find very good conditions, always.
SO FOR LAST TIME I REPEAT:
it would be correct, because in these tracks with lift you pay a ticket, that preparation of tracks should be done as well as ski tracks because who pays skipass for going with ski, wants to find good preparation of ski tracks at least in the early morning (and they find so always), for this reason it should be correct that rodel tracks with lift (so with rodel ticket) should have same attention.
It's not correct to pay the ticket and then find:
-maybe good conditions
-maybe bumps and jumps starting at 1st descent
-maybe track has not been prepared (it happened also this thing 2 times)
-maybe someone in the night destroyed track 
And a better preparation of tracks (at level of ski tracks, not more and not less) would be better for sportrodlers but also for rentals.
For your information, this year me and my friend has lightly injured for our valutation error, not due preparation status.

So before writing about "cosmic nothing", please, think, you are older, too.




 

vide, of course I am interested why you didn´t take any action against the crodarossa, but you can mail me if you want. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but I know you didn´t sue, because I asked someone of the company and he didnt know anything about it. But I remember, you were angry and upset the  crodarossa-company. 
But I think, they cannot prepare during operating hours and you have to adapt to changing track conditions. Especially when the snow is rather soft.

Of course I want perfect conditions and preparation. I also got my money back for a daytime-ticket when I did just one run and then told the man at the counter this is not prepared at all. And the ski track was perfect. In Austria. 

But a different thing is: when it becomes so risky to run a track, because everyone who hurts himself is accusing the track-keepers, only very big companies will be able to run tracks. On the tracks that are free, it is like this: if it is advertised as "Rodelbahn", then the keeper is responsible for safety. Even if the Leihrodel is free (on rifugio or malga). So some trackpeople declare it as "Winterwanderweg", or something like that. Then, if a Rodel-accident happens, they are not liable.
But if someone hurts himself and takes legal action, it is always unpleasent, also on a Winterwanderweg, so many small tracks, which were no business for the keepers, only good as additional offer for the tourist-office, these tracks disappeared and many residents with a sportrodel are angry about the tourists, that always take legal actions if they have an accident.

And just one more time, the last time, I say: Imagine that there were many more Sportrodlers, who do many rides and stay on the track for 4 hours, so even if the rodelbahn-company would make a perfect track every morning:
This perfect condition would not last for long. Because on a rodelbahn every Sportrodler goes on the same line, the racing line. Even if the track is wide. So you cannot compare that to the skislopes. 

So if there would be a high amount of Sportrodlers on tracks with cablecars, you would have good conditions for one hour, depending on the weather, and then very bad conditions and much traffic on the track. The only days with less people would be when the weather is really bad.
And a small amount of Sportrodlers is not enough to be an essential economic factor for big ski areas.  
 
Aside from that: it is unrealistic to hope for a near future with many Sportrodlers. So our discussion is a waste of time.
Just try to find good tracks then sometimes you will have a very good day. With few rodlers at all. 

 

In Sexten this is final decision of court in 2016:

ANSA) - BOLZANO, APRIL 1 - One year and three months of imprisonment each: this is the sentence imposed by the court of Bolzano against a ski instructor and two managers of the ski center for the death of Romano Campiti, a Roman boy from 14 years old, killed in March 2012 after a sled crash into a tree on the Croda Rossa slope in Sesto Pusteria.
On the dock the ski instructor, Alessio Talamini, the director of the Sesto-Croda Rossa ski center, Mark Winkler and the security officer, Rudolf Egarter. The three will also have to compensate with 240 thousand euros and family members of the young victim

About Ritten, it was true that the word Rodelbahn with arrow showing the direction to rodelbahn was only in German, but in the other side there was the picture (red circle with red slash on sled icon) that was clearly forbidding the ski track to sled. So this was enough and nothing happened to manager. The mother was an east European lady living in Italy

i didn’t know about two deaths in same place in one week. I know that the father of the 14yo was a friend of my colleague that Was used to go to Sexten every year and also himself and his son with same age of the dead one was used to sled in Crodarossa. I will investigate on this second death 

Thank you. The names suggest, the father was italian and could read the signs, but while he was searching for a way to get down to the rodelbahn, the mother was already on the black skislope. 

I remember there were 3 similar deadly accidents on the Hochwurzen in the last years, people missed or left intentionally the rodelbahn at a junction with the skislope and from the skislope crashed against trees. There are big arrows pointing in the rodelbahn-direction at the Hochwurzen.

www.krone.at/439528

www.tageszeitung.it/2017/03/31/toedliche-rodelfahrt/
www.tageszeitung.it/2018/12/15/mitschuld-am-unglueck/

Here I saw that it was a conditional sentence for the 3 men in Sexten. Here we see the spot where the accident happened:



Spots like this are nearly on every rodelbahn. 
Today this is completely guarded at the right side:
At 1:40

 

@Luchs

I went deep on the two incidents in Italy.
Ritten:
The family could be defined as Italian, even is the woman has origin in East of Europe. but of course perfectly able to read italian. Don't know about German
Father and son were at the end of th track waiting for mother and doughter.
Nobody knows why she didn't stop in the intermedite station, where stopped first time with plastic paddle and when Helmut advised them to rent a sled.
So, she went on the top station.
Attached the photo of the board.
Rodelweg is written in double language. Arrow on the left
on the arrow that drive to the black ski track, on the right, it is written only in german that sledding there is forbidden. But there is the famous picture , similar to road signals, that cleary show that sledding there is forbidden.
the criminal trial is stil open. Started last September and at the end of thid month there will be an additional step.

Sexten
There was only one death. one week before another incident, but not mortal.
But it is true that the first incident was an argument in the second incident court analysis.
in this case, the judged were three: the station manager, the safety manager and the ski teacher of the boy, that brenght the boy on the rodelbahn.
Rodelbahn was iced and diffiicult at the time.
there are two final sentence: 1 year and four month for the safety manager and the ski teacher.
Then , in italy, for sentence below 2 years there is no phisical prison.

I see that now Crodarossa is more protected than at the time.
Also, if I see video about Lusia/Fraina track 10 years ago, I'm surprised to see how it changed.
From this point of view in Italy , we are enough luky. When I look some video abroad, mainly in Switzerland, I'm surprpirsed to see very rare protection.
For example Rotenflue has totally nothing along the track.
For sure the most crtitical points, mainly in long tracks, like Rudirun or Monte Cavallo are the streight sections.
All curves are today protected, but it is impossible to protect 100% of any track like workcup tracks.
Also, Wordlcup are only 1 km long.
I talk frequenty with Lusia director. He always asks me how improve the safety of the track. He added additional barriers after my suggestion.
We are still discussing how protect the only really dangerous section of the track: the long final streight.
That also is not really streight bug it is like a "snake". Also , the road, has natural little hills, that, when the track is iced are creating some problem driving the rodeln.
If you look at this my video...



when track was like a marble, how it is difficult for me the final streight. It is a streight, But I'm continuosly fighting with the rodeln.
And this is dangerous, because hills are immediately before the little curves and the sled looses contact with the ground, landing just before curves. And trees are waiting beside the track.
The "director" told me that this is a natural road for Malghe and protected by law. He can't install permanent barriers along it . But he told me to talk with Danilo, that is my neighborrhod, the best snowcat driver in Dolimity, the artist of the skicross track, He is very precise in his work, to go in the site and see what we can do. In my point of view, the only solution is to get plain the little hills in the road before winter. I don't know if this is allowed. is  enough to get plain just a couple of them.

Also, director asked for a quotation for full cover the track with artificial snow. The quotation is 300K euro. But he told me that this is not the point.
In case he decided to do, he has to increase the width of the track, loosing the magic atmoshpere of the little road in the wood along little Malghe.
I never heard, and he never told me about new law with minumum width of the track. Probably in Bozen province. Lusia is in Trento province. We will see.